Monday, January 2, 2012

Old Apostolic Church Exposed


The following article was written by Dean Ministries.


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One church that is fairly popular in South Africa is the Old Apostolic Church (OAC). My father-in-law used to belong to it and I’ve known people who are practising members. On the outside it appears Christian enough, but one should never go by the feeling in life! Once I was told by a follower: “I’m Old Apostolic, and no we are not a cult!” without my ever having mentioned the c-word. So let us look at what the church is about, and see why, in my view, they most definitely are!


First though, I will explain their origins, hierarchy and initial values. I’ll do my best to make it as simple as possible; you will see how this is a church born out of disagreement and still plagued by schisms (splits).

Church Origins

The OAC has its roots in the Catholic Apostolic Church (formed around 1831, but after its last “apostle” died in 1901 it went into decline) which followed the Nicene Creed of 325AD (Catholic) and, like the OAC, is not an offshoot of the Reformation (or, Protestantism) but of Irvingism.

There was such a movement too in Europe; notably Germany and The Netherlands. After 3 Catholic Apostolic “apostles” died in 1855, the apostolate declared there was no reason to call new ones. They called 2 substitutes (coadjutors) in 1860. But in 1862 another “apostle” was called in Germany by the “prophet” Heinrich Geyer. The “apostles” did not agree with this, so the largest part of the Hamburg congregation, along with their Bishop F.W. Schwartz, were excommunicated. From this came the Allgemeine Christliche Apostolische Mission (ACAM) in 1863. In The Netherlands it led to the Apostolische Zending, later called Hersteld Apostolische Zendingkerk(HAZK). This later became the New Apostolic Church.

In 1899, Carl George Klibbe came to South Africa to do mission work for the New Apostolic Church. He was ordained by “apostle” H.F. Niemeyer of Australia as an apostle. Due to the personality cult (when someone uses propaganda to elevate themselves) of “chief apostle” Hermann Niehaus, Niemeyer separated himself from the German branch and formed the Apostolic Church of Queensland. The South African branch also separated from the German branch, and henceforth became the New Apostolic Church (NAC). The reasons they did this:

1)     Niehaus' ban on prophetic gifts (visions, dreams and prophecies),
2)     Niehaus' refusal to appoint Prophets,
3)     Niehaus' acceptance of the literal interpretation of the Bible,
4)     establishment of the office of Chief Apostle, and
5)     personality cult that formed around the Chief Apostle.
Hermann Niehaus tride to remove Carl George Klibbe and appointed Wilhelm Schlaphoff as “apostle” instead. Klibbe was excommunicated in 1913. So, for a while there were two NACs in South Africa. Eventually they came to an agreement in 1926. Carl Klibbe’s church would be called Old Apostolic Church (OAC), Schlaphoff’s would become the New Apostolic Church (NAC). Today the OAC has around 2 million followers in Africa (South Africa, Swaziland, Namibia, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Botswana, Zambia, Malawi) and 30,000 in Europe; branches are in USA, Canada, UK, The Netherlands, Belgium, Australia, New Zealand and the United Arab Emirates.

Their Structure

The OAC’s leadership is a body called the Conference of apostles. It consists of all active and retired “apostles”, led by a chairman who is appointed for a term of two years; he may only serve two terms.

The OAC is divided into nine districts covering Southern Africa and Germany. Each district is run by the District Office, where the “apostles” work from. Each “apostle” has an Apostleship which includes a few Overseerships. Such an Overseership is led by an Overseer, Evangelist and Prophet. It is divided into many Elderships.

An Eldership will cover one or many congregations and has many Priests and Underdeacons. The Priest is responsible for the spiritual welfare of the followers, and assisted by the Underdeacon who does Bible study and testimony.

Ministers are appointed and ordained by an “apostle” by having hands laid on them. They get no theological training; but they believe that by breaking bread within the church, they will get all their doctrine and scriptures from that. While I do not believe that a church minister “needs” a theology degree, and I have known people who have a degree but still lack simple knowledge, surely a person, who is responsible for the development and growth of a congregation, should at least have some understanding? Understanding is something the Bible holds paramount! If only it were so easy to just break bread and instantly get all the knowledge you needed!

What are their Values?

The OAC rejects ecumenism, or the compromise of the Word of God with other churches. Now, this is a good thing – many Protestant churches are compromising the Word to appease the wicked world, or even to create unity with the Roman Catholic Church. However, the followers are taught that the OAC is the only true church – this is where it gets tricky. Officially they will say that they do not consider believers to be unsaved if they are outside of the OAC; but at the same time, “it is the only true church”, so by implication alone it does just that. Just to re-iterate who can be saved:

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Note how the verse says “whosoever” – an old word meaning “whoever”.Anybody who calls upon the name of Jesus shall be saved. If the OAC or any other church were the “only true church” and salvation were only within it, the Bible would say this. But it does not! Also worth noting is that clergy and followers are often hostile towards other churches and ministers. They believe that only the members of the OAC will go to heaven (Catechism Question 2 & 3).

As for politics, followers of the OAC are forbidden from partaking in politics. They are allowed to vote (because forbidding them would violate the law), but they are not allowed to join a political party or stand for election. This is similar to Jehovah’s Witness teaching. There were two further schisms (separations) in 1972 and 1968, leading to the Reformed Old Apostolic Church and Twelve Apostles Church of South Africa, simply because some people wanted to get involved in politics.

The Old Apostolic Church's view on non-participation in politics has led to two schisms. In 1972 several coloured members formed the Reformed Old Apostolic Church, and in 1968 several black members formed the Twelve Apostles Church of Africa.

Regarding Bible Versions, the OAC only uses the KJV in English (I agree with that!); or Afrikaans 1933/53, or the German 1912 version of the Luther Bible. The early OAC used the Dutch Statenbijbel until 1933, when the first Afrikaans Bible translation came out.

What do they believe?

Enter the cult status! The core difference between the OAC and other churches is that it reads the Bible “spiritually”, rather than literally. In other words, you as a believer cannot simply buy a Bible and start reading it. You see, every word that is written in the Bible is inspired by God, and for them this means it is deemed too holy to be read in the normal way. So whatever is written in the Bible, there has to be a hidden “spiritual” meaning for every word.

Let me give you an example of a follower’s problem that I was faced with:

Genesis 1:14-19 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:  And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

What you just read now is the part of Genesis 1, which describes the creation on the fourth day. If you simply read it as it is written, it is clear that on the Fourth Day, God created light; the sun and the moon.

So what did the OAC follower in question believe it said? Well, that on the Fourth Day, God created good and evil, because good is symbolised as light and evil is symbolised as darkness. Problems:

1)    This assumes that what the Bible says is different from what it actually means;
2)    Putting the presence of evil on the Fourth Day, when God said after the six-day creation that everything was “very good”, that would make God a liar;
3)    There was no death until Adam sinned. By evil, death came into the world. So if evil is present on the Fourth Day, this will lead to death before sin (just like the Gap Theory) and this is heresy.
4)    How would that follower possibly understand the creation account by looking for hidden meanings?

To show further how reading the Bible “spiritually” is not only wrong, but in some cases impossible, here is an exercise. Try to interpret the following verses in any way you wish, except for what is written:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
John 11:35 Jesus wept.

These are just simple verses; but how can you possibly interpret these in any other way? It is impossible. But to do so would require reading literally. Remember that the OAC and NAC split, partly because the one wanted to read the Bible literally! So, by the OAC’s own rules, if the Bible says “thou shalt not kill”, they are not allowed to understand this as “thou shalt not kill”!

Furthermore, they consider the stories in the Bible to be historical events, but have to be interpreted in the same way as the parables in the Gospels – in other words, the Bible cannot just give a factual account of something, even factual accounts are considered just to be metaphorical stories to try and make some point!

The OAC also does not consider the Bible to be the only source of authority, but must go hand in hand with the Holy Spirit to interpret it. The OAC also has its own Catechism. This is a definite cult alert!

This concept of “Bible plus something else” is a common trait in cults. You will see in known cults that they have a Bible, but then come out with their own literature to confess their own strange ideas, then adapt the Bible to fit the literature accordingly. The Jehovah’s Witnesses have a Bible (New World Translation, edited to fit their beliefs) but they really follow the Watchtower. Catholics have a Bible (Catholic Bible, includes seven other books and some extra chapters), with some slight editing to fit their beliefs – the Catechisms, Canons, doctrines of the Vatican are what they really follow. Enter the OAC. They have the Bible – to their credit, unedited – but instead, its followers are forbidden from reading the Scriptures as they were written. The “Holy Spirit” is paramount for them, but what is their “Holy Spirit”? The spirit which allows them to magically see what the Bible “really” says. So although the Bible is their holy book, the elders’ interpretation “via the Holy spirit” supersedes it. This is begging for cult status!

But why, I hear you asking. Well put it this way. Suppose you are just a follower of the OAC. You’ll have a Bible. But you may not read it just as it’s written. If you do read it, you cannot understand “properly” what is written. In order to understand the writing “spiritually”, you must let the church elder read and interpret it for you.

This is wrong! The Bible is clear enough for even a youngster to read and understand. What the OAC is doing is akin to “guru-ism”. In other words, the Bible is too difficult for the average person to read, and you need a guru to read it for you. And you just have to trust that they’re correct. This is exactly how cults get started!

Also, the OAC has Sacraments. This is an inheritance from the Catholic Church. Actually, quite a few churches have Sacraments. But it matters not how many churches have them; this is wrong! To explain, a Sacrament is a ritual that is required for your salvation. The Bible is very clear that it is faiththat saves you and nothing else! Yet, the OAC have three Sacraments; Holy Communion, Holy Baptism and Holy Sealing. The Holy Sealing is the administration of the Holy Spirit and considered to be part of your spiritual rebirth. They believe that a man becomes a Child of God this way. I am by no means against Communion or Baptism, but they are not requirements for salvation. If someone accepts Jesus Christ and then dies, they are saved – because faith alone saves you!

The OAC also believes that they can give these Sacraments to dead people! An “apostle” will give them to two substitute people (usually a Fourfold Officer and his wife). They don’t believe the dead person will be in those two people, but somehow they can accept Sacraments for dead people who, according to the Bible, are already in Heaven or Hell.

As for the “apostles”; consider the roles of an OAC “apostle” and decide if this is vaguely Biblical. The points, as well as the pieces in red, come from a source.

1)    The authority of the Bible is subordinate to the authority of the Apostle. – WHAT?!

Question 37 of the catechism asks, "Can we receive salvation and everlasting life through the scriptures?" Answer: "No..." The apostles have been set "to be a light of the Gentiles, that they should be for salvation unto the ends of the earth" (Catechism Question 11b). Question 35 asks, "Who has been sent to preach the Gospel?" Answer: "The apostles, as clearly shown in 1 Thess 2:13..."

2)    The apostle controls the entrance to heaven. – WHAT?!

Salvation is possible only through the apostle; for those who believe in Christ through the apostles (Catechism Question 36 & 49). To the apostles only has been given knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of heaven (Catechism Question 5 & 50, e & f). People can only come to faith through the words spoken by an apostle: without the apostles no-one can become a believer. The church interprets Mt 10:40 to mean that no-one can see the Father or Christ if they do not accept the apostle, for, "Whoever welcomes you, welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me, welcomes the one who sent me." The apostles are the only people with whom God speaks directly (Catechism Question 25), who understand the Scriptures (Catechism Question 38), who know God (Catechism Question 24), who speak the wisdom of God (Catechism Question 50c), are able to forgive sins (Catechism Question 47), and who are going to judge the earth (Catechism Question 41).

3)    The apostles are Christ's substitutes on earth. – WHAT?!

Yes, apparently the only begotten Son of God needs a substitute. Not only this, but “apostles” have the power to forgive sins. Does this not reek of Catholicism?

4)    The apostles are the only people who may curse. – NO!!!

Fear not! They cannot curse you at all, nobody can. But apparently, many OAC members remain in the church because they fear being cursed. Undoubtedly this is why some followers have pressure to go to church at least three times a week.

(Source)

really recommend you visit the source as it has more information on the OAC. As you delve into their church, it is blatant how anti-Christian it really is.

Friends, the only thing which matters in life is this – do you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour? This is the one and only way you can get to Heaven. Know (I mean, know!) you’re a sinner and repent (feel remorse, feel the shame); know you’re deserving of Hell, know Jesus died for your sins and call on Him to save you. That’s all! Then get hold of a Bible (KJV is best for many reasons, it’s about the only thing this OAC got right! Any Bible can save you but there’s nothing better than a KJV). But not only is the Bible the inspired, infallible, inerrant Word of God, it will also help you to know exactly when those who profess Christianity are indeed OK, or are cults and heretics. And here we have a clear-cut cult.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
(underlining = mine)

South Africa, howl with me. We have another wolf in our midst!

Other source (which I specifically used for details on the foundation of the OAC. I loathe Wikipedia for its bias, and a lot of the article is clearly written by an OAC follower)
Extra: information was used from witness accounts; dicussing with and questioning people I have known who are practising OAC members.

87 comments:

  1. you really dont understand our church thats what i can say to you and youll never do

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    1. You people are all brainwashed.

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    2. Gen 1:1-5

      Heaven and earth are used in the Bible as symbols - heaven as the symbol of the spiritual mind, and earth as the symbol of the natural mind. Regeneration, which is the subject treated of in this story of creation, is the orderly formation and development of the distinct planes of life that are involved in the structure of these two minds. These two minds, with their degrees of life, constitute the difference between man and the mere animal for the mere animal possesses only the sensual degree, with something that makes an approach to the scientific, but is wholly without the rational and the three degrees constituent of the spiritual mind.

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    3. Gen 1:6-8

      The awakening of the things good and true that were implanted and stored away during childhood, and the dawning of the light of God upon the mind, brings the consciousness that there are in the mind states of knowledge that are from heaven and states of knowledge that are from the world. That which brings this consciousness is the rational perception of the duality of the mind. This perception at first is far from being clear; it is in fact very dim, but it enables a man to realize that he has, lying above what is natural in himself, a higher mind, or self, which demands, for its satisfaction, growth and culture, something the world cannot supply.

      This dawning internal rational perception is what is meant by these words: "And God said, Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters." It is a rational perception, but it is in the formative state. It is not, at that time, lifted up and clearly discriminated and intellectually distinguished from the general perceptions of the mind. It is, at first, in the midst of the waters

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    4. Gen 1:9-13

      The rational perception that there is involved in man two minds, an external mind for this world and an internal mind for the spiritual world, puts us in a position to see that all spiritual knowledge, the truth and good of heaven, inflow from the Lord through the internal mind into the external and are stored up in the memory for use in our coming regeneration.

      The memory is therefore a most important department of the mind. It must be formed and stored with truths, learned from without, before there can be any distinct reasoning or deep thinking. Children are inspired by the Lord, through their guardian angels, with the love of knowing facts, and they are gifted with the mental organ of memory, in which they may be implanted and stored up. The will and the memory are active long before the understanding is in any degree developed. The will to learn, the love of knowing, must come in order that one may learn, and there must be a receptacle of the knowledge that is acquired, and this is the memory, capacious to receive and retentive to retain what is learned.

      The memory is therefore the "one place" into which the waters under the heavens are gathered. For think - the waters under the heavens are the truths acquired by study and instruction - the truths that are stored up after they are learned. During this period there is afforded to parents and teachers the golden opportunity of implanting in children's minds the knowledge of the letter of the Lord's Word. There is nothing more important than this. Parents and teachers should not do the least thing to disturb a child's implicit belief in the letter of the Bible stories. They should be taught to the child mind in the form the Lord has put them. And not only should the Bible stories be taught in the form we find them in the letter of the Word, but certain portions of the Word should be committed to memory, such as the Lord's Prayer, the Ten Blessings, the Ten Commandments, and many of the shorter Psalms and the sayings of the Lord in the Gospels. The doing of this is the gathering of the waters into one place.

      Rational thinking about these things will come later, and then doctrine about them can be taught. When this state arrives, there will form in the mind a plane for the reception of the Divine seed, from which will spring up and grow the life of heaven. This plane, or soil, is what is meant by the appearance of the dry land or earth.

      The beginnings of the spiritual life - how interesting they are! God said: "Let the earth bring forth." Up to this point, God has done every thing, but now the earth, which has risen out of the waters, is called upon to bring forth. Childhood is a period of preparation for the spiritual life. This is what makes child life so sacred. But when the memory is stored with truths, and the understanding of them in their relation to life has been formed, man is then capable of co-operating with the Lord. He can hear, understand and obey the Divine commands. He has come into his own responsible life. He is, spiritually, of age, and can act as of himself. He can receive and become conscious of God's operation in his soul, and is able to co-operate with the regenerative endeavor of the Divine Spirit. Thus God says: "Let the earth bring forth."

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    5. The Fourth Day of creation:

      Natural the Sun gives light and warmth, thus spiritually the sun symbolises light(The truth) and warmth(love). The Moon symbolises Faith. The moon appears during the night. Night symbolises an unclear state of mind, when everything is a mass or when one is facing difficulty. During this period faith is the one that gives hope and light in one's life. The stars is all the knowledge of truth - ten commandments, stories of the bible, etc. Stars can also symbolise morally upright members.

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    6. Writer of the blog, you are fortunate that you are not a fallen officer, they would be calling you the fallen dragon in Revelations 12, saying that you want to throw the stars of heaven to the earth because you are angry the you were removed from one of the heavens. They abuse officers who were removed without cause from offices with such teachings.

      Officers who were removed from office are not allowed to say anything that differs from what the authority says, should an officer oppose they start to call him anti- and say he is the fallen dragon with seven heads, members and officers are warned to stay far from officers who were removed from office.

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    7. Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;And did all eat the same spiritual meat;And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness (1 corinthians 10:1-5)

      In the old testament, reading this story (water from the rock) you would think they drank literal water and Moses hit a literal rock, but reading this chapter it is clear that all happened spiritually.

      Hope you are starting to see the light.

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    8. Samson killed a lion and after some days he came back and found bees with honey on the carcass of a dead lion and he ate that honey and gave some to his parents.

      How disgusting, imagine literally speaking if you were to find a chocolate cake on a dead dog, would you eat it?! God forbid. Biologically speaking bees are attracted to nectar, sweet smell, pollen, then how come they laid honey on a dead lion with blood - this is biologically wrong?

      Spiritually this makes a lot of sense. Literally it is impossible.

      Hope the light is starting to shine.

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    9. To you, because you are not spiritually inclined and not taught and neither filled with the Holy Spirit, the verse
      Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created Heaven and earth", will seem that it cannot be interpreted, but it can be.

      "In the beginning" - means at the start of something new, the origin, first encounter of something. When I first testify to you, this is the beginning of the OAC knowledge in that head of yours. In the beginning (first interaction) I find you confused and not understanding clearly the message the church is conveying to you.

      On the first day God said, "let there be light", and there was light, but he only created the stars, the moon and the sun on the fourth day. So what was the source of light on the first day as he only created the stars, the moon and the sun on the fourth day???

      There was light on the first day, where did this light come from on the first day??? What was the source of this light??

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    10. Exodus 20:13", Thou shall not kill

      literally it's wrong to kill and spiritually, it's also wrong to kill. How do people die spiritually or get killed.

      The prodigal son spent his wealth his whoremongers and when he returned, his father said, "my son was dead, but now he is alive", read it yourself in the bible. So therefore separation with the father (God) means death.

      In Ephesians 2, "Paul said we were once dead, when we were walking according to the course of this world". To walk according to fleshly lasts means death and this means a degradation in moral standard or committing acts written in Galatians 05:19-22.

      If through words or actions you cause a person to separate from church, you have killed that person spiritually. If you are a leader and commit immoral acts and a member witness this and she/he stops going to church, you have killed that person spiritually.

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    11. Thou shalt not commit adultery:

      Jesus said, "If you look at a woman to lust after her, you have committed adultery already in you heart". Then tell me, how is this adultery committed, literally or spiritually?? Which heart?, the literal one or the one of the mind? The one of the body only pumps blood and there is no room for committing adultery - This adultery happens in the spiritual mind (the spiritual heart).

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    12. Thou shalt not kill spiritually:

      For instance; a man has been in the habit of attending church. He feels that it is good and right for him to worship the Lord, and to receive instruction from His Holy Word. This external state of worship, well disposed towards God and man, is a form of moral good, a state of outward innocence. It may be ignorant, not knowing that genuine worship is in the heart, and in the daily life. Now, suppose this man's unholy personal ambition should come travelling through his mind, to satisfy desires. He should feed with rebuke and instruction. But suppose, instead of doing so, he, lets it seize upon his outward affection for worship. Suppose he adulterates his innocent moral good of worship with his false principle of self-exaltation. Then, figuratively, he seizes upon Bathsheba; and he kills Uriah, her husband, who stands in his way; i.e., he rejects every literal truth which arises to rebuke his false principle.

      Spiritually, we kill a man, when we destroy his faith and love towards the Lord, in which is his spiritual life. Murder is the spirit of hell, destroying everything that looks towards heaven. You kill a truth, in your own mind, or in another's, when you pervert and falsify it, to make it justify evils and sins. And, as all malice, anger and ill-will are but forms of the spirit of murder, so all falsity tends to destroy the life of truth.

      As adultery and murder are the most serious crimes against civil society, so spiritual adultery and murder are the most destructive crimes against spiritual life.

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    13. "the thief" denotes a lie which takes away truth.

      Thou shalt not steal. That this signifies that no one’s spiritual goods must be taken away from him, and that those things which belong to the Lord are not to be attributed to self, is evident from the signification of "stealing," as being to take away spiritual goods from anyone. That this is signified by "stealing," is because riches and wealth in the spiritual sense is the knowledge of good and truth, in general all those things which are of faith and charity, that is, which are of spiritual life in man. Wherefore to take these things away from anyone is "to steal" in the spiritual sense. And because all spiritual goods, that is, all things of faith and charity, are from the Lord alone, and absolutely nothing from man, therefore by "stealing" is also signified to attribute to one‘s self what belongs to the Lord. They who do this are also called "thieves and robbers" in John.

      A TYPICAL EXAMPLE OF STEALING, IS TAKING AWAY A GIFT THAT WAS VESTED IN A PERSON UNRIGHTEOUSLY, EG, REMOVING A PERSON FROM OFFICE WITHOUT A CAUSE.

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  2. WELL I AM FROM THE NEW APOSTOLIC CHURCH CURRENTLY DATING A OLD APOSTOLIC MEMBER, I HAV BEEN TO A SERMON AND BY THE MEANS OF SPREADING THE GOSPEL WE HAVE NO DIFFERENCE, WE ARE SERVING ONE GOD! WAYS OF DOING THINGS THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BUT THAT IS WAYS OF SERVING OUR GOD ALL OF US HAVE DIFFERENT WAYS OF SERVING OUR GOD BUT WE DO NOT WORSHIP IDOLS!! YOU GO TO CHURCH FOR THE GROWING OF YOU SOUL AND THE TEACHING OF THE BIBLE IS FOR HOW WE SHOULD LIVE YES RIGHT ENOUGH WE ARE NOT PERFECT BUT WE STRIVE TO BE PERFECT.... HONESTLY I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST OTHER DENOMINATIONS WHO ARE WE TO JUDGE !! THERE IS ONLY ONE JUDGE AN HE IS GOD.... SO NO USE IN DISCRIMINATING....SO YOU CAN SAY WHAT YOU LIKE I MUST SAY OAC AND NAC WE LIVE IN THE TIME OF THE SPIRIT WHERE THAT IS MORE IMPORTANT AND PRAYER LIFE AND BELIEVING IN WHAT YOU PRAY

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  3. wow , as an Old Apostolic i am shocked to the bone here ... firstly all your comments are from ex apostolic`s who never understood the body of Christ and yes you can be in the church all your life and still not seek God. The general conception from other domination's is that only you need to believe in Jesus and you will be saved , now lets break down belief. example should you be a teenager and dream of one day driving a car , what do you need , firstly you need belief that you can , then you have to practice until you can , and when you finally can drive a car do you need to still belief you can drive a car ? The OAC does belief as in Peter 1:9 "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls" ( so there is a end to faith) faith is only until you can do , in other words to serve God. Knowledge (knowing the scriptures ) brings forth wisdom to overcome faith.
    As your entries indicate that our elders preach is false , we do not have preachers in our ordinance but rather servants , no one gets a salary at all , (unlike every so-called preacher who starts some ministry and imposing their ideals and views ) i am a simple brother in the church and try and participate in all sacramental days. This is how i serve a living God , with my knowledge (Grown by the under deacon through breaking of bread)"sharing of knowledge" and with the wisdom of my Priest.
    "I was lost by now i`m found" always went to church on sunday and read my bible , but now i understand it , and whatever i do not understand there is a fellow brother and sister willing to help me understand. I do pray for you and hope you will pick up your cross soon Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
    24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

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    1. Amen, true OAC :)

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    2. Why are all the OAC people so defensive?

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    3. You are wrong, "No one is paid?", Apostles get paid royal salaries and are given money to buy luxurious cars, they are also given expensive houses. You are either naïve, gullible, ignorant or plain stupid.

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    4. We are not defensive, we want to bring clarity in that head of yours. Please pay attention.

      "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me" (John 5:46).

      The New Testament is silent about much of Jesus' life as an infant and child. What was happening then? What was He experiencing?

      We are all aware of the Christmas story: the promised birth of John the Baptist, the annunciation to Mary, the Lord's birth in Bethlehem. We know that first the shepherds came to adore Him and that later the magi from the East arrived with their gifts. We recall that shortly after the wise men left, Joseph was warned in a dream by night to flee into Egypt with Mary and the infant Jesus.

      How old was the child Jesus when He left Egypt? What did He learn there? We know only that when it was safe, Joseph, Mary, and Jesus returned to Canaan. Joseph by-passed Jerusalem because he feared Archelaus who now ruled there as successor to his father, Herod. The family went back to Nazareth.

      What happened between the time that the Lord returned to Nazareth and the time that He was twelve years old? These are vital years in His growing up, but again we know nothing about them from the gospels. At age twelve, Jesus traveled with Joseph and Mary down to Jerusalem so that the family might observe the Passover feast. On their journey home, Joseph and Mary realized that Jesus was not with the caravan. They rushed back to Jerusalem and sought frantically for Him for three days. Finally they found Him in the temple, speaking and listening to the teachers there and showing wisdom that "astonished" those who heard Him.

      The next time we hear of Jesus, He is thirty. Eighteen years have passed. What happened during these years? It seems that the Lord had stayed in Egypt for about three years before returning to Nazareth with Joseph and Mary. If this is accurate, nine years passed in Nazareth between the ages of three and twelve. Nine years and eighteen years--twenty-seven years of Jesus' life, and of these we know next to nothing from the New Testament. For believing Christians this is one of the mysteries of the Bible. Obviously these were vital years in His development. We are told that He "increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and men" (Luke 2: 52). We are also told in Mark (6: 3) that He took up the trade of carpentry: "Is not this the carpenter?"


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    5. These gaps in the history of the Lord's life on earth have led to many legends. Some say He went to the lost tribes of Israel; others that He traveled to the Orient and taught there. But these are simply guesses. There is no conclusive evidence. During His ministry on earth the Lord promised that He would disclose more.

      "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth" (John 16:12,13).

      On the walk to Emmaus with two of His followers on Easter afternoon, the Lord responded to their terrible anxieties:

      "Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into His glory?" And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself (Luke 24: 26,27).

      Later these two followers said, "Did not our heart burn within us while He talked with us on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to us?" (Luke 24:32)

      What did Jesus tell them? Did He reveal how, within the Old Testament, Moses and the Prophets speak about His own life on earth? Later in Luke we read that Jesus also unfolded the Scriptures to His disciples on Easter evening. He said to them

      "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things might be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." And He opened their understanding that they might comprehend the Scriptures (Luke 24: 44,45).

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    6. In the Old Testament lie hidden stories which treat of the Lord's lifetime on earth in great depth and detail. But the Old Testament does not treat of the Lord's outer history - the day-by-day outward events of His life. Rather, it deals with His inner history, that is, His loves and His struggles, and the development of His mind and character. This highest "sense" or meaning in the Bible tells of the successive mental states of His infancy, childhood, youth, and then His entire life on earth.

      But before relating the inner story of Jesus Christ, I will first treat of what Jesus Christ came on earth to achieve. Why, indeed, did "the Word become flesh"? (John 1:14) The young virgin Mary was at first frightened and bewildered by the appearance of the angel Gabriel, announcing that she would give birth to the Savior of humankind. And yet, despite being unable to fully understand what this event would mean, she answered willingly from her heart: "Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word" (Luke 1:38).

      By this willingness, Mary was able to serve God, but not only by providing a mother's arms to hold and care for the infant Jesus. By coming through a finite human mother, Jehovah God was able to inherit both a material body and all the finite tendencies and weaknesses that make human beings vulnerable to evil. Though Mary herself was sweet and good, she held within her, as all finite humans do, the imperfections that can allow a person to be led astray.

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    7. Abram's life viewed from within is the story of the Lord's infancy, childhood, and youth. The lives of the following patriarchs - Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph - represent later stages in His life on earth. They reveal His adult states or frame of mind, leading up to the final temptations, His crucifixion, and the glory of Easter.

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    8. we are defensive because its so irritating to have to "answer" for our faith! and the worse is the people questioning does and clearly will not ever have a clue what they are talking about. its so funny that they have to keep themselves busy trying to humiliate churches, like they have a lot of time to waste, rather then spending there precious time looking in the mirror, asking themselves why it is so imported to tell others that they are wrong. Are you then of God? I would simply say that if you cant see what our faith is all about, your not meant to be. rather go on about your business, looking for people to judge. We really don't care how the world sees us, doesn't matter really. any AOC member that truly understands is laughing at you people right now, shaking their head at your ignorance

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    9. ahahahahahaha i am one of those members

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  4. now lets for one second assume you are completely right and all the accusations against the OAC is true to your understanding. What point did you proof ??? did you proof that man is sinful ? Yes Did you yourself tried to follow this faith and you overcame it ? No ,its all hearsay . Did you proof yourself to be non judgmental ? No.
    Did you proof yourself to be a preacher ? yes , Did you proof yourself to be a servant ? No. Can you proof the scriptures to be taken literally ? No (you are losing followers because of science in today`s world)Can you proof without a shadow of doubt that you are a true Christian ? and we are not ? can you proof that you are serving God the way He wants to be served and not the way man wants to serve Him ? No you can not!!!Will your teaching differ from what your followers will interpret ? Yes. Do you use advertising to gain followers ? Yes this internet page you are using now !!! Do we use advertising ? No, but we do go out on testimony to bring the Word of God to someone who was never interested..(not a already church going "Christian")It remains their choice to join the OAC , some testimony`s can take years at one house. Do we get paid for this ? No.Is your ministry normally an event , and can be cancelled at any time because of low number attendance ? Yes. Do we cancel any teaching ? No. even when you are the only one at that teaching you will still remain for the duration thereof. with your collection money Does your ministry pay pensions to the elderly ? Does your members get buried by yourself and for free ? Does your members get married by you and for free ? Does your ministry pay hospital bills for someone that can not afford it ? Does your members get trauma counseling by registered Psychologist`s for free ?. Do you have monthly meetings with all your members discussing where their 10th`s go.? by the way I have never in 40 years paid any 10th`s because i could simply not afford it , most members cannot afford it but the Priest and elders and all other officers do pay. (now isn`t this a reversed effect of what normal ministries do ? We do buy land to build new churches with excess money debt free. (this is because like the scriptures say , you need to be free from debt )In areas where there are no buildings we have church in members homes.

    Enough of that , bottom line is we teach and do and do not preach , therefore its easy to differ from your views...

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    1. This person writting this clearly sees the light, but is fighting against that light.

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    2. I was raised in the OAC, & my parents were active in the OAC until the time of their death (in the last 2 years) I have to say this, in quoting your comments:
      Does your ministry pay pensions to the elderly ? My father was 85 and my mother was over 60 & NEVER did they ever received a cent from the OAC!
      Does your members get buried by yourself and for free ? OAC has funeral plans which, due to the quantity of policies they arrange with AVBOB for their member makes the policy monthly payments reasonably priced. However, it is NOT FREE. The service is done by an officer, but AVBOB buries the deceased!
      Does your ministry pay hospital bills for someone that can not afford it ?
      My mother suffered with cancer, was hospitalized for the last 2 months of her life & not even as much as a visit from 99% of the community or officers was ever made, let alone give assistance with her R25000.00 hospital bill!
      Does your members get trauma counseling by registered Psychologist`s for free ?.
      Is this for certain communities? As I have NEVER witnessed or hear of any member receiving this benefit when needed!

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  5. Wow this is quite an interesting and insightful read, I am responding to the one dated May 27 2013 but basically my opinion as an OAC member and No I am not saying this because I am Old Apostolic, it is said say we serve the same God I am sorry to disappoint you but we Don't, the scripture clearly indicates in the book of Matthew that "If you want to serve Me then you should serve me in "Spirit and Truth" for I am nothing but a Spirit a Spoken Word spoken by those sent by God. Why is it that when a conversation arises regarding believe then it is declared by a non-Old Apostolic the Lord is my Heart but then seconds later it's said I am waiting on his return and that he is coming one day? Go read Luke 17 v 19-21

    Well my challenge to you is this allow us to testify you then you decide for yourself to see what we believe and do is what we say again entirely up to you but that is the challenge it is good and well that you visit now and then and Thank You for that but let us Testify you.

    As always OAC For Life till the casquett drop's.

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  6. This goes to the comment that was post on the 17th of June 2013

    Good Day and true what u r saying.
    I'm blessed to be part of the OAC since the day I was born.
    And today I'm more blessed because I believe in my church and God.

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  7. Wow. This is good. I wish to comment on the Verses you gave as examples here. The first thing You should know is if You dont understand the Creation You will never understand the OAC. Are You aware that god Created Man and then Formed Man? Get me right: Gen 1 : 27 So God created mankind in his own image,
    in the image of God he created them;
    male and female he created them.
    Gen 2 7 Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

    This must give you a bit of insight of How the bible is written. My friend, The Old Apostolic Church is the True Church of Christ, and teaches the Original Doctrine of Christ. I am well aware of people who have left the Faith,and try to paint it with thier imagination. The Faith was built and it has been built, and it will continue to to grow strong in Jesus Name, and It shall save more people that you are trying to mislead and drive to your faiths which gather people without Authority from Christ. If You want i am always available to stand for my Faith contact me vonky2006@yahoo.com . Amen.

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    1. I will pray for you.

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  8. Do the Old Apostolic church believe in the second coming of Jesus and do they believe the Bible is the true Word from God?

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    1. The Second Coming of the Lord is a process already on-going, changing the very environment ... of all mankind. It is not to be a bodily Coming . . . The Second Coming is as the very spirit of truth.

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    2. For His presence in the Word is by means of the spiritual sense and in no other way .... The sense of the letter of the Word is like a cloud, and the spiritual sense is the glory, the Lord Himself being the Sun from which the light comes. Thus the Lord is the Word. Psalm 84:11(For the Lord God is a sun and shield). Is he the physical or literal sun we see with the naked eye? Is he the literal shield that was used by Shaka Zulu? No. Common sense tells me and you that this is a colloquial meaning or spiritual or figurative meaning which needs to be interpreted.

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    3. By sight and hearing each one of us knows what we know. By sight and hearing we sense realities outside of ourselves. By these twin senses (spiritual and natural) we come to know the reality of the natural world, and by twin senses of a higher kind - by the internal sight of understanding and the internal hearing of perception - we come to know the reality of spiritual things.


      Nothing can look into itself; but it must be something more internal or higher that thinks about it, for this can look into it. For example: the ear cannot know, and still less perceive the speech that it receives into itself: this is done by a more interior hearing. The ear merely discerns articulate sounds or words: it is the interior hearing that apprehends what is said, and then it is an interior sight of mental view that perceives it, and in this way there is through the hearing a perception of the meaning of the speech. The case is similar with the things of sight.

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    4. literal fulfillment of the prophecies was impossible for physical reasons. Consider, for instance, the "stars falling from heaven" as mentioned in Matthew (24:29). We know that the earth is one of the tiniest of the planets, and that the stars beyond the planets are so much larger than the earth, and there are so many of them, that if they should really start falling toward the earth, when they got within a certain distance of it they would completely interlock. They would form a complete and solid mass, and the gravity from such a huge body would be such as to tear the earth to atoms. The physical concept of the stars falling is simply impossible to believe literally in the face of all that science has taught us about the universe.

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    5. Furthermore, it is impossible to conceive of any place where the Lord could appear, except in the spiritual world, where every eye could see Him. In this world there is no cloud high enough. The highest mountain is only visible from a comparatively small portion of the earth's surface. The people on the opposite side of the earth would be deprived of the sight of His coming. Because a literal fulfillment involves scientific contradictions, which seem to me to be insuperable, this mode of fulfillment is not satisfying.

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    6. Another contradiction appears when we try to interpret the prophecies in a literal manner. Notice the Twenty-fourth chapter in Matthew, where we are told that the Lord would appear in the clouds of heaven after the sun had been darkened, and the moon ceased to give its light, and the stars had fallen from heaven.

      Contrast with this the Nineteenth chapter of the Book of Revelation where we have another picture of the Second Coming of the Lord. Here He is described as coming on a white horse followed by the angels of heaven, all of whom are riding on white horses. We have here two very different literal pictures - one is of a great horseman on a beautiful white steed followed by a mighty army riding on similar mounts sweeping forth from heaven; the other presents the picture of the Son of Man alone, coming in the clouds of heaven.

      Will the Lord come on a white horse, or will He come in the clouds of heaven? Literally it is hard to reconcile these two different forecasts of His Second Advent, but if we seek for a spiritual interpretation, something which is above the letter, we will find a complete reconciliation.

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    7. Then let us leave the literal for a moment and substitute spiritual values. What is meant by the Lord as a horseman? Remember that He was born in a stable and laid in a manger, because a manger fed horses, and horses signify the understanding of the Word. This correspondence rested on the fact that horses were the chief means of traveling from one place to another. Just so, the understanding of the Word is the means by which we are carried from one spiritual truth to another. When truth is understood spiritual light is shed in the mind. That spiritual light is the Lord riding upon the white horse. "And His name is called, The Word of God."

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    8. The clouds of heaven, on the other hand, are made up of small water particles, water which corresponds to truth. The clouds of heaven then represent the gathering together of these truths, especially in the literal sense of the Word. Now a true understanding of the Word reveals the Lord, so the Lord is seen in the clouds of heaven, that is, He is seen in the literal sense of the Word which, as it were, opens to our sight. Thus perceived He rides into our hearts on a white horse. Spiritually these two visions of the Second Coming of the Lord are the same. Whether He comes in the understanding of the Word, or whether He comes in the clouds of heaven, the significance is the same.

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    9. Nevertheless we have those other passages which seem to indicate an utterly different kind of coming which in the spiritual sense harmonizes with His coming as a horseman or His coming in the clouds. I refer to a passage in Luke which states that the coming of the Lord is a personal thing. It is secret. "The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation," he says. (17:20) What could be more contradictory in the letter than the opposing ideas of the Lord's coming in the clouds of heaven, with His coming without observation. What a magnificent coming is portrayed in the words "every eye shall see Him." (Rev. 1:7) He is revealed to the whole spiritual world. Yet how deep is the message that "the Kingdom of God is within you". The Second Coming is universal, but it is also intimate and intensely personal.

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    10. If we seek to learn the spiritual meaning involved in the Lord's coming in the clouds of heaven, of His riding on a white horse and of His coming not with observation, we will come to a deeper understanding of the Word, which deeper understanding really constitutes the Second Coming of the Lord. When we can see truths in the Word which we never saw before - we may say that the Kingdom of God has come to us personally. And really that is the only thing that is vital to us. It is the Lord's Second Coming into our hearts which is the matter of supreme importance. The Kingdom of God cometh not flashingly - with a "Lo here", or "Lo there" - but the Kingdom of God is within us.

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    11. Yes, if he comes with the clouds and we observe him literally descending, it will be in contradiction with, "The kingdom of God cometh not with observatio".
      Thus this mode of coming literally is impossible.

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    12. Falling stars which are bigger than the smallest planet earth will definitely destroy the earth and nothing will be left Then who will the Lord take up to heaven if all people are now dead? Remember the falling stars are meant to be symbols of his coming. 1 STAR IS BIGGER THAN THE EARTH.

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  9. GOD MADE MAN AS A SPIRITUAL BEING AS GOD DECLARES IN THE BIBLE THAT HE WANTS TO BE WORSHIPED IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH JOHN 4:24......THE ONLY WAY IN WHICH GOD IS TRULY WORSHIPED

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    1. hahahaaa I find this funny because people read the same statement over and over again and still they don't understand u. this is what is meant by the Hidden Treasures of Heaven. people see these words yet they don't know what dem words mean. UNTIL THEY TAKE THIS INTO CONSIDERATION THEY WILL NEVER UNDASTAND. "FAITH IS TO BELIEVE WHAT ONE CANT SEE, SEEING WHAT ONE BELIEVES WILL COME IN A MIRACULOUS WAY " Because you and I have believed in the Almighty's powers we are enjoying the fruits of his Garden. I am your fellow Brethen and God has blessed you for not shying away from all criticism you got for defending his Name.

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  10. Let us tie this idea of the spiritual interpretation of the prophecies together with our original proposition, that the Lord is everywhere; that He is here in this room; that He was in Bethlehem the night that He was born. What, then, does His Second Coming mean to us as individuals? It means that the Kingdom of God must be within you. I can illustrate what I mean by the example of a radio. The current that flows into it and lights up the tubes may be compared to the Lord's immediate influx into each one of us. The Lord flows into us and keeps us alive, but we have no conscious sensation of that inflowing life. We don't feel it. He gives us the life processes, and that is like the inflowing electricity that lights up the tubes in your radio, but that inflowing current is not what tunes your set to various stations. Your dial gives you the stations, and when of your own free will you tune in a station, then that particular station can send its signals into your radio. The waves from the station were there all the time, but they were, as it were, around and outside your radio.

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  11. And that the Lord will not come with observation, but must come within you, harmonizes perfectly with the idea that the Lord becomes present by a greater understanding of the Word which will lead us to the deeper affections and greater wisdom, such as is signified by the Rider on the white horse. And it makes one with the picture of the Lord coming with glory in the clouds of the literal sense of the Word, which are the clouds of heaven.

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  12. Let us look at another kind of prophecy, the one that we find in the sixteenth chapter of John, where the Lord is talking with His disciples and says, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit, when He, the spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak." (12-13) Think for a moment of the disciples, and consider what the Lord meant by those words.

    Peter, Andrew, James, and John were fishermen. They probably had had scarcely any education as we understand it. As likely as not, they thought that the sun was a ball of fire suspended in the sky, that the moon was a lesser light created to give us some illumination at night, that the stars were tiny lights in the sky, and that the world was flat. Suppose Peter had kicked a piece of coal as he walked along beside the Sea of Galilee, he would have thought that it was only a black stone. He would not have known that stored up in what seemed to be a stone there was a wealth of potential heat, of aniline dyes and gases and many more things that we know today as coal products.

    These were the men to whom the Lord said, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now." That is, "Ye cannot understand them yet." Nevertheless, He said, the time would come when the spirit of truth would reveal those things unto the world.

    Those simple disciples had a task to perform. Their great work was to teach the world that the Lord had risen from the dead, that He had conquered death. That was the supreme message of Christianity, and with it they were to preach the simple Christian principles revealed in the Sermon on the Mount and in the Lord's other discourses, for these were the truths whereby man might conquer the death of sin and come into heaven. That was the task imposed upon the disciples.

    They were not then prepared to understand the glorification of the Lord, to perceive how He had taken on a body from Mary, and how little by little He had glorified it. They had no concepts of philosophy, nor even of natural science, by means of which they could understand His deeper teaching. Consequently He foretold a further revelation in the words, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now."

    At His first coming the Lord took on a garment of flesh so that we could see Him in a new way - feel Him, and hear His voice, and whatever the Divine does it does perfectly. By His incarnation He achieved all that could be accomplished by a life in the flesh, and by the glorification of His body. If, as He indicated, there were other things which He could not accomplish or teach because of the state of men's minds at that time - these could not be done by men's vision of Him in the flesh, but only by His revealing His inner spirit - the Spirit of Truth.

    The history of the individual repeats the history of the race, and the Lord told Nicodemus that people must be twice born to become spiritual. They must first be born of their mother, and then they must be born of water and of the Spirit. (John 3:5) The Lord told him that it was not a rebirth in the flesh, but a rebirth from water and the spirit. In a similar way, it is needful for people to see the Lord not only as to the flesh, but also to see Him as to His Spirit. His second advent reveals His Divine Love and Wisdom. Just as at the first coming He gave people a body of flesh to behold, now at the Second Coming He gives them a body of truth Divine, which answers the questions in peoples' hearts, which down to the present time the literal sense of the Word has failed to answer.


    "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit, when He, the spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth." (John 16:12,13)

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  13. Jesus frequently showed that the Old Testament contained deeper meanings than were first apparent. For example, He told His disciples that the Old Testament contained many prophecies about His own life that they had not understood. "Beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself." (Luke 24:27) "He opened their understanding that they might comprehend the Scriptures." (Luke 24:45)

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  14. Jesus showed that stories in the Old Testament were symbolic of His own life, even when the symbolism was not apparent in the literal meaning. For example, the story of the manna is symbolic of Jesus as the bread of life: "Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven." (John 6:32) Another story with an inner meaning referring to Jesus is the brass serpent: "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up." (John 3:14) It is similar with the story of Jonah and the whale: "As Jonah was three days in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matt 12:40) The temple in Jerusalem, which was the scene of many stories in the Old Testament, was also a symbol of Jesus. (John 2:19-22)

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  15. Paul also encourages us to go beyond the literal meaning of the Old Testament. He asks us to obey the spirit of the law, not just the letter. "He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, and not in the letter." (Romans 2:29) "We should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6) "The letter kills, but the spirit gives life." (2 Corinthians 3:6)

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  16. Paul often pointed to deeper meanings in the Old Testament. For example, he took Adam as a symbol of Christ, (Romans 5:14) and his marriage with Eve as a symbol of Christ's marriage with the Church. (Ephesians 5:31, 32) He saw the story of Noah and the Flood as an antitype of baptism and regeneration. (1 Peter 3:20, 21) The Tabernacle of Israel with its furnishings and all the rituals and sacrifices performed in it pictured Jesus' work of salvation. These earthly things were the "copy and shadow of heavenly things...symbolic for the present time." (Hebrews 8:5, 9:9, Colossians 2:16, 17) The story of Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar and their sons is also an allegory, in which Hagar's son represented the Lord's covenant with the Jews and Sarah's son symbolized the New Covenant in Christ. (Galations 4:22-31)

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  17. The Exodus story tells how the children of Israel escaped from Egypt, trekked through the wilderness for forty years, and finally made their home in the promised land. Many have seen this as symbolic of our spiritual journey out of slavery to sin, through trials and temptations and into heaven. But does the Bible itself suggest that this is a parable, or a story with an inner meaning? In fact, it does. Psalm 78 opens with the words, "I will open my mouth in a parable; I will utter dark sayings of old." The "parable" that follows is the story of the plagues on Egypt, crossing the Red Sea, bringing water from the rock, receiving manna from heaven, and other stories of the Exodus. Thus the whole story of Exodus is a parable.

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  18. The prophet Hosea wrote, "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son." (Hosea 11:1) Clearly, the "child" here is Israel as a young nation, and being called out of Egypt refers to the Exodus. But on a deeper level, it refers to Christ Himself—it is prophetic of what would happen in Jesus' life. (Matthew 2:15)

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  19. We can see from this that many of the stories of the Old Testament are symbolic of Christ and His work of salvation. But what about the stories that are not directly explained in the New Testament? Do they also have inner meanings? Many people have seen a parallel between Joseph, the son of Israel, and Jesus. The table illustrates how Joseph was a symbol of Christ, even though this symbolism could not have been seen before Christ's coming.

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  20. Joseph and Jesus Compared

    •Joseph was a shepherd
    •Jesus was our Shepherd
    •Joseph was a beloved son
    •Jesus was a beloved Son
    •Joseph was stripped of his tunic
    •Jesus was stripped of His tunic
    •Joseph was sold for twenty pieces of silver by Judah
    •Jesus was betrayed for thirty pieces of silver by Judas
    •Joseph was abandoned by his brothers
    •Jesus was abandoned by His disciples
    •Joseph was falsely accused of crime
    •Jesus was falsely accused of crime
    •Joseph was imprisoned with two criminals, one of whom would be released
    •Jesus was crucified with two criminals, one of whom would be saved
    •Joseph was became ruler of all the land
    •Jesus was became King of heaven
    •Joseph provided food to hungry people
    •Jesus provided food to hungry people
    •Joseph was reunited with his brothers, who bowed down to him
    •Jesus was reunited with His disciples, who worshipped Him
    •Joseph was reunited with his father
    •Jesus was reunited with the Father in Him

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  21. The Bible itself never says specifically that the story of Joseph has an inner meaning relating to Christ. May we look for a deeper meaning even in places which the Bible does not specifically explain?
    We have already seen that Christ fulfilled many prophecies that were symbolically hidden in Old Testament stories. Does every part of the Law and Prophets contain prophecies of Jesus life? Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." If Jesus fulfilled every jot and tittle of the Law and Prophets, then every jot and tittle must contain prophecies of His life, either symbolically hidden or clearly stated.

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  22. So far I have focused on the Old Testament. What about the New Testament? Does it also contain inner meanings? Jesus constantly spoke in parables: "Without a parable He did not speak to them." (Matthew 13:34) He told us that He would eventually reveal to us the inner meaning of His words. "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.... These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language but I will tell you plainly about the Father." (John 16:12,25)

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  23. What about the Book of Revelation? Many things in this book seem obviously to be symbolic. For example, this book speaks of Four Horsemen, one on a white horse, one on a red one, one on a black one, and one called Death on a pale horse. Most people can see that these are not literal horses, but symbols of something else, such as war, famine and plague. (Revelation 6:1-8) Most people realize that the holy city New Jerusalem is a symbol of heaven or of a new era on earth, and not a literal city a thousand miles high coming out of the clouds.

    If the Book of Revelation is at all like the prophecies of the Old Testament, it must contain many prophecies hidden in symbolism that become clear only after the prophesied events have taken place.

    The Bible is God's revelation of Himself. As a Divine Revelation, the Bible contains infinite truth. In order to see that truth more fully, we must look for the deeper meanings to which the Bible itself points us. If we do this, the Lord will "open our eyes to see wonderful things from His law" so that we can more and more clearly see the Lord Himself revealed in "every jot and title."

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  24. Because the Word is the means by which the Lord gives heavenly understanding and intelligence to man it is described as the "light of men." (John 1: 1-5)

    But for countless centuries it had been true that the light of the Word "shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." The darkness which obscured the light of the Word was man's fall into evils and falsities. These brought to the human mind a spiritual night ruled by externalism and naturalism; and when the knowledge of the spiritual truths of heaven was completely lost, ignorance added its veil to complete the darkness of the night.

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  25. If we reflect upon the over-all history of Divine revelation, we will note understandable changes in the form and style employed. We will see a gradual progression from seemingly simple childlike stories to open spiritual-rational doctrines and truths.

    The Writings describe the first form of the Word as it existed in the Most Ancient Church. It was not written in any ultimate form. It consisted of instruction given by the Lord through the media of angel companions. In dreams at night the most ancients would listen to the discourse of the angels, and would see the life and the scenery of heaven. Their particular revelation gave knowledge of the correspondences of all things on earth and all things in heaven. Knowing these correspondences, they would see imaged in the world of nature the kingdom of heaven, and thus would think constantly of the things of heaven as a part of their earthly life.

    Because the most ancients had a thorough knowledge of correspondences they used events, names and places to signify or represent things pertaining to the Lord, the church and man's regeneration. As the Most Ancient Church declined, this knowledge was passed on from one generation to another by word of mouth. It was near the time of the final fall of that church that those represented in the Word by Enoch gathered all such knowledges together and, under the secret guidance and inspiration of the Lord, connected them together into writings. This is how the first written revelation was formed, the revelation to be known in its final form as the Ancient Word.

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  26. While the reason for the preservation of the Ancient Word and its possible future use with man may not be clear, we are made fully aware of the use and style of that part of it which has been retained. The first eleven chapters of Genesis, the Writings tell us, that is, up to the advent of Abram, Nahor and Haran, are all that has been retained from the Ancient Word, except for a few additional fragments. The stories included in this portion of the Word read like a series of fairy tales adapted to children. They include the stories of creation, of Adam and Eve, of their children, of the flood, of Noah and the ark and of the tower of Babel; and finally, a genealogy of Terah, the supposed father of Abram. We see from the Writings that in a sense these stories from the Ancient Word are fairy tales; they were written entirely in the language of correspondences and representatives, and do not in any sense portray historical events, personalities or places. Yet they are not like any other fairy tales, for these stories were ordered and organized by the Lord and contain within them instruction in spiritual truths that is to serve man for all ages. In these non-historical writings the spiritual knowledges of heaven are deeply hidden in the ancient style of correspondential language. So covered has been the spiritual knowledge within these writings that few have even imagined that they contain anything other than factual stories of early times, or purely mythological accounts formulated by ancient writers.

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  27. Following the stories from the Ancient Word, the style of revelation changes abruptly to the historic account of the birth, growth and life of the Israelitish nation. From the call of Abram in the twelfth chapter of Genesis, through the books of Moses, Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings, the Scriptures read much like a historical journal. The Writings inform us that there are some exceptions to historical accuracy, in that certain numbers, times, places and miracles were either changed or inserted to serve the context of the spiritual sense. The spiritual sense within this history is buried deeply, but not as deeply as in the stories of the Ancient Word. We do find throughout the history of the sons of Israel various laws and commands which make clear certain fundamental spiritual truths, such as that Jehovah God is one. However, such instance of open spiritual truths being taught are few and widely scattered. We find certain moral laws, such as those contained in the last three commandments; and we find a veritable multitude of civil laws. But for all of this, nothing has shown man a spiritual sense lying consistently within. No one has ever guessed that every jot and tittle contains the truths of heaven

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  28. When we leave the books of Kings and turn to the Psalms and the Prophets, we note that the style of the Word in the letter changes abruptly. No longer is there a story to be followed: not the allegorical stories of the Ancient Word, nor the historical recounting of the lives of the patriarchs and the rise and fall of the Israelitish nation.

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  29. In the Psalms of David we find a style of writing that is musical and poetic and filled with the expression of affection and love - a style that is intermediate between the prophetic and that of common speech. We are not able to see from the literal sense how the Psalms are formed into a connected series; indeed, even with the help of the spiritual sense from the Writings, we only begin to see an internal series within. The Writings tell us that inmostly the Psalms treat of the Lord's states of humiliation and glorification, and they outline for us the spiritual content of each Psalm. Yet, even with this, you will find out that in the Writings of psalms the series of the internal sense of the Psalms, and of the Prophets, cannot be examined in a progressive story as can that series in the other books of the Old Testament. The average reader, who perhaps has only a general idea of the internal sense, can nevertheless reap much benefit from reading the Psalms. Because the language of the Psalms approaches that of common speech, if we take each Psalm as a unit we will see clearly some particular aspect of the Lord's love and wisdom shining forth from the song and poetry of the letter. In many places the spiritual sense stands forth to view; warming and stirring the heart to acknowledge the Lord as Creator, the Lord as Preserver, the Lord as Protector, the Lord as judge, the Lord as the Redeemer and Savior, or the Lord as mercy and love.

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  30. When we come to the Prophets, beginning with Isaiah and concluding with Malachi, we find that much of the letter seems broken and unconnected. Yet we are made fully aware that what we are reading has some meaning, some signification. The style is still poetic, but the language is no longer that of common speech, as in the Psalms, but rather the symbolic language of prophecy. At times the letter is crude, and so vulgar as to raise a question as to its use in public worship; at other times a prophetic vision is given, clear and beautiful, and so powerful in its message and implications as to inspire a holy awe for the nature of the Divine wisdom. Such, for example, is the prophecy given in the ninth chapter of the prophecy of Isaiah which begins: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given."

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  31. When we turn from the Old Testament to the New Testament, we see the style and form of the Word undergo another great change; we find the whole nature and sphere of the expression to be different. It is true that in some manner we see all three styles employed in the Old Testament used again in the New Testament. In place of the correspondential stories of the Ancient Word we find the Divine parables. In place of the history of the Israelitish nation we find the historical movements and dramatic story of the Lord and His disciples. In place of the prophecies of judgment upon various cities and countries of the Old Testament we find the New Testament prophecies of the great Last Judgment. And finally, in place of the Old Testament prophecies of the Lord's birth, life and resurrection we find the New Testament prophecies of the Lord's second coming and the birth and life of the New Church.

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  32. Where we see the change in form of Divine revelation from the Old to the New Testament is in the subject-matter, and even more in the manner of expression. We see the spiritual truths of the Word, hidden for the most part deeply in the letter of the Old Testament, coming much more to the foreground in the letter of the New Testament. In the Old Testament we find that the emphasis of the letter is upon law - Divine law couched largely in terms of civil law. In the latter, such Old Testament law appears rather harsh, abstract, cold, demanding, and sometimes unmerciful. In the New Testament we find the emphasis of the letter upon law also; but now we see Divine law couched largely in terms of moral law. We see more clearly the presence of love, mercy, charity, understanding, forgiveness, and the concern of a loving Human God for His children.

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  33. Yet we are taught that the full meaning of scripture is not found in the letter alone. In the internal sense, "flesh" does not mean the material body, but the sensuous which is the ultimate of the natural; and in this instance the reference is not to the material body which the Lord assumed from Mary but to the Human which He put on from the Divine itself. When the Lord was born, the Word was indeed made flesh externally in His infant body; but this was not the complete fulfillment of that scripture, and the Word was not made flesh internally until the Lord had made the Human in Himself Divine down to the sensuous and had thus become the Word in ultimates. In other words, John's inspired statement is an announcement not only of the Incarnation but also of the Lord's glorification; and its fulfillment was marked by His saying, after His resurrection, "A spirit hath not flesh . . . as ye see Me have."

    This extended view takes nothing away from John's words as a profound statement of the Incarnation. Rather does it carry our thought forward to the glorification, for the sake of which, as the means of salvation, the Lord came. For by "flesh" in reference to the Lord is signified also His Divine proprium - the Divine good of the Divine love proceeding from the Divine Human; and from that flesh, the teaching is, all flesh is vivified by the appropriation of His love, which appropriation is signified by "eating the flesh of the Son of Man." This appropriation is effected by the life of love and charity, which is also the life of faith. It is represented and actually takes place in the Holy Supper according to the presence of that life; and that it can take place, to effect conjunction, is because the Word was made flesh.

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  34. The OAC rejects ecumenism, or the compromise of the Word of God with other churches. Now, this is a good thing – many Protestant churches are compromising the Word to appease the wicked world, or even to create unity with the Roman Catholic Church. However, the followers are taught that the OAC is the only true church – this is where it gets tricky. Officially they will say that they do not consider believers to be unsaved if they are outside of the OAC; but at the same time, “it is the only true church”, so by implication alone it does just that. Just to re-iterate who can be saved:
    This that you said right here is untrue. everyone can be saved if they are part of the church or not. Remember God is in everyone and when your natural body dies your soul keeps on seeking the truth. Even if you were not saved while your natural body walked the earth your soul will seek out an individual that is walking the path of Christ and that individual will receive a vision or a dream from the profit and that soul shall be send into eternal life with God. Do not break down any church for we do not do that. This what you are doing now is not right brother. A cult? WOW

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  35. Anonymous August 23, 2013 at 1:59 PM, you have just proven yourself a liar, as what are you doing now, is trashing another church. You are therefore guilty of trying to break down another church. We believe, that their are good people in all religions and merely believe that God has made provision for all, who have not found the full truth in this life. That is why we baptise the living for the dead; 1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
    We also believe that their are many stars (meaning religions) that circle around the sun (Son Christ) and that some are just closer to the truth than others. We have not come to judge but to save as that is the mission of Jesus Christ. The following invitation has been given to you, so it appears, that you are not prepared to deny yourself daily, and have chosen a path of soul destruction, by trashing others; Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. Other religions also believe that they are the true Way. Thanks for calling us a cult as you have just proven a point; Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

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  36. [Addressing the original article:] I think you've made an error in your interpretation, I don't know if anyone else commented on it, but in case they haven't I will just point it out:

    Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    This does not translate to: "Anybody who calls upon the name of Jesus shall be saved" (as you put it).

    This is because "whosoever shall call upon" in Romans 10:13 does not just mean 'whosoever will call upon'. "Shall call upon" requires an honest hope in any call being made. A mere calling is not sufficient; lacking hope- a call holds no volume that would allow it to be received as a call.

    Therefore "call upon" excludes mimicked calls upon the name of the Lord. As "the name of the Lord" is not a mere word, or sound-sign, but its 'how you know the Lord'. Placing your hope into 'how you know the Lord' will only then produce the name that can be called upon, as then it is understood to be the name of the Lord, and not just some hollow traditional noise.

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  37. If you believe in God, you have chosen to reject Allah, Vishnu, Budda, Waheguru and all of the thousands of other gods that other people worship today. It is quite likely that you rejected these other gods without ever looking into their religions or reading their books. You simply absorbed the dominant faith in your home or in the society you grew up in.
    In the same way, the followers of all these other religions have chosen to reject God. You think their gods are imaginary, and they think your God is imaginary.
    In other words, each religious person on earth today arbitrarily rejects thousands of gods as imaginary, many of which he/she has never even heard of, and arbitrarily chooses to "believe" in one of them.
    The following quote from Stephen F. Roberts sums up the situation very nicely:
    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
    A rational person rejects all human gods equally, because all of them are equally imaginary. How do we know that they are imaginary? Simply imagine that one of them is real. If one of these thousands of gods were actually real, then his followers would be experiencing real, undeniable benefits. These benefits would be obvious to everyone. The followers of a true god would pray, and their prayers would be answered. The followers of a true god would therefore live longer, have fewer diseases, have lots more money, etc. There would be thousands of statistical markers surrounding the followers of a true god.
    Everyone would notice all of these benefits, and they would gravitate toward this true god. And thus, over the course of several centuries, everyone would be aligned on the one true god. All the other false gods would have fallen by the wayside long ago, and there would be only one religion under the one true god.
    When we look at our world today, we see nothing like that. There are two billion Christians AND there are more than one billion Muslims, and their religions are mutually exclusive. There is a lot of other religions. When you analyse any of them, they all show a remarkable similarity -- there is zero evidence that any of these gods exist. That is how we know that they are all imaginary. They all require some sort of faith and faith is not a pathway to truth! It is the excuse people give if they don't have any rational explanation for their beliefs. If you say that faith is a pathway to truth then you cannot distinguish between the faith of the different religions. If faith is your pathway then you will have to accept all religions as an acceptable pathway to the living "god" In the end at all comes down to EVIDENCE.

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    1. The testimonies given on the 20th July, and those below are excellent work, inspired by God. Consider your self privileged to have received these.
      What puzzles me is your innuendo that the OAC. is NOT, but SHOULD BE "christian". The OAC purports to be the BODY OF CHRIST, not "substitutes" for. How can Christ become a christian?
      Who should He then follow? What would be the purpose of the OAC in becoming "christian"? To be less than what they are?
      Surely that does not make any sense!
      Where are "christians" mentioned is scriptures? And where is it stated that one must be "christian". By whose or what authority do you judge. Not the bible's, because you have ignored a great deal many chapters referring to spirit, the "Holy Ghost", body of Christ, apostles prophets etc.
      What is a "christian"?
      Someone, perhaps, who believes in the manifestation of science by reason of the bible? What primarily, are you seeking or trying to comprehend or establish? Primarily, that is, God or the manifestations of the physical world? Anyone, infidel or otherwise believes in the manifestation of the physical world. You cannot study the physical + scientific make up of anything with biblical scriptures. What is the problem with the deceased? They do not automatically become evil spirits,upon passing. They too have a need to hear about the body of Christ, and to know God! How else can they be saved? No you cannot be saved by faith alone. Read James C2 17-26 nor reading scriptures alone 2 Cor c3,v6
      Let the OAC testify you!
      Regarding the letter on the 20th DEC. The matter being discussed were questions of faith, and not questions of infidels versus faith. Also what you said is impossible, as money has a balance. Also you did not read the testimonies given, if you did you would have realised that at no time did the OAC purport Christ to have temporal values, and that was the point of the testimonies.

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    2. In response to 20th Dec.You have missed the point entirely. If everyone believed in God for the sake of money, living longer + avoidance of disease, etc.it would result in people who would believe in God merely for the sake of greed + natural/physical gratification. The OAC testified above that God is found on a higher plane of thought than that of the mere animal. Also, it would not possible for everybody to be wealthy, because money spread over a large amount of people has a balance. There is no physical evidence or proof of God, or faith, except for the outward manifestation of the behaviours of people . If you read the above testimonies you would have perceived that the OAC. is testifying that neither God, nor Heaven, can be found in the physical/natural world, but is found within the inner mind/soul within mankind. The original article was a question of different faith + beliefs, and not one of infidels versus believers. Sadly it is the case that many perceive the bible, principals, values + standards etc. to be fiction. The result is the abominable state of degradation that mankind often finds himself in.
      In response to the original blog. Your innuendo that the OAC. ie: the body of Christ is not "christian" is puzzling to me. How can Christ/the body of Christ be christian? Does "christianity" supersede Christ now? What is a "christian"? Someone who attempting to justify the manifestation of the physical world through the scriptures? Anyone can perceive the physical world. Or someone who was waiting for Christ? Well to you, He has come through the OAC, so what are you waiting for? Let them testify you. What was the point of all the criticism of the OAC? Which is besides the fact that you gave a distorted impression, because you did not consider the value + merits of the weight of the beliefs, which are spiritual.
      Also you seemed to be very afraid/wary/nervous/critical of the deceased. What is the problem? It does not stand to reason that the deceased automatically become demon possessed "evil' spirits, but rather that they are souls, just like you and I, who also seeking the truth. Why do you think that the body of Christ should not make a spiritual provision for them?

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  38. GOOD DAY, I HAVE A QUESTION CONCERNING THE 'EVERYTHING IS ONLY SPITIUAL CONCEPT'? I AM AN OLD APOSTOLIC CHURCH MEMBER, BUT I HAVE ALWAYS ASKED THE FOLLOWING QUESTION AND IT HAS NEVER BEEN ANSWERED BY THE MEMBERS OR OFFICERS OF THE CHURCH. THE QUESTION IS THIS; IF EVERYTHING (THE BIBLE AND ITS DOCTRINE) IS SPIRITUAL, AND ACCORDING TO MANY APOSTOLICS THAT I HAVE SPOKEN TO THIS IS THE BELIEF, WHY IS IT RECORDED IN THE BIBLE THAT THE NATURAL IS FIRST AND THEN THE SPIRIT? I REQUEST ANSWERS TO MY QUESTION BUT I AM NOT INTERESTED IN SOMEONES OPINION, I REQUIRE BIBLICAL/SCRIPTURAL AND EVEN HISTORICAL ANSWERS PLEASE.

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    1. Your question is a good one - and most often not answered correctly.

      The scripture reference to answer your question is 1Co 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

      There is a difference between saying that the "bible is spiritual" compared to that the "bible must be spiritually discerned".

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  39. The bible does not record anywhere how a person is born, naturally. The way that I understand it is like this: After a person in born (naturally) awareness, understanding + comprehension of the natural, comes about, in the mind of that person, over time. Only then, after some thought about it, by that person, does awareness of the inner mind ie: spirit comes about, then understanding + comprehension regarding the spirit occurs over time. Therefore the natural first + then the spirit. Any individual has to be born naturally + develop an understanding to understand the natural around them first, and only then can they become aware of the inner mind or spirit.

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    1. THERE MAY BE TRUTH IN YOUR ANSWER, BUT THIS IS JUST YOUR OPINION CONCERNING MY QUESTION AND YOUR VIEWS. THESE CAN BE AGREED/DISAGREED UPON IN A DISCUSSION. HOWEVER, MY QUESTION IS FOR BIBLICAL PROOF TO BE PROVIDED TO SUBSTANTIATE YOUR STATEMENT/S. I APPRECIATE YOUR ANSWER BUT REQUEST AN ANSWER WITH BIBLICAL AND/OR HISTORICAL PROOF. YOUR THEORY MAY BE PROOF OF WHAT ALL CHRISTIAN CHURCHES BELIEVE. SO I AM STILL CONFUSED. DID GOD THEN IF FACT CREATE THE NATURAL EARTH AND EVERYTHING ELSE AS THE BIBLE SAYS OR NOT. APOSTLE KLIBBE BELIEVED IN THE NATURAL AND SPIRITUAL (PROOF CAN BE PROVIDED), BUT THE CURRENT CHURCH DOES NOT. DOES THE APOSTOLIC CHURCH BELIEVE IN THE SECOND COMING OR NOT? IF THEY DO NOT, THEN DO THEY WE BELIEVE IN SELECTED PARTS OF THE BIBLE THAT SUITS US OR OUR CURRENT DOCTRINE. THIS IS WHAT CONCERNS ME, WHAT DO WE BELIEVE? WHAT WAS BELIEVED IN THE CHURCH 50 YEARS AGO IS NOT BELIEVED ANYMORE. WHO/WHAT CHANGED OUR BELIEFS? I AGAIN REQUEST BIBLICAL PROOF ONLY PLEASE. I THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TO EXPLAIN THESE QUESTIONS, AND LOOK FORWARD TO MORE ANSWERS.

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    2. Mankind has questioned whether God created the natural world or for many centuries. So far there is no proof that God created the natural earth, or that the natural world is a scientific,biological event. No one has provided any proof of either. Whether scientific theory or faith, it is a matter of opinion. Scriptures does not contain an account of how the natural earth came about at all. If you know or understand something different please let me know. The creation described in scriptures, if one believes in the spiritual is what is within every individual person, but is only realised after spiritual thought + understanding, over time. The OAC does beleve in the 2nd coming of Christ, in this sense. First Christ came as a unique individual in flesh, and the 2nd coming is spiritual. I do believe that beliefs has changed over the past 50 years. But general knowledge + the understanding of humankind, has changed, vastly during the past 50 years. In my opinion (only an opinion) what the church believe s has changed for 3 reasons. The improvement in scientific/ biogical knowledge, that people reason + understand, (spiritual + naturally) better, and they did 50 years ago, and that "the powers that be" in the church are willing to reveal more that they did 50 years ago.

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    3. I thank you for engaging me with my queries, If the theory exists that God did not create the natural, then the being that did is the one that I want to serve, as I can see the majesty of His/Her creation. The bible in the book of Genesis clearly states that God did create heaven and earth (it is also recorded that the natural came first and then the spiritual). By stating anything different are we not disbelieving the same Bible that we claim to believe in? I am still rather confused. This is the reason that I requested scriptural/historical proof, as I only believe in the Bible and not in man's fallible beliefs and thoughts. I was taught that I cannot make any statements concerning religious beliefs unless I can prove them out of the Scripture. Please I request biblical quotations to prove your points so that I can understand and read them for myself. If I may pose a question; In the answer provided that the creation described in the scripture was not the creation of the natural earth, then how can you be sure that it was/is in fact the explanation of the 'spiritual creation of a person'/ Please explain where the Kingdom of God is and how the second coming will happen, I am struggling to understand these scriptural concepts? Once again please provide biblical/scriptural proof for you answer/s. I thank you for your time and patience.

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  40. Whether you believe that God created the physical earth/world is up to you.
    The bible is not a description or record of the physical earth/physical world. The question that you asked regarding the physical creation, cannot be answered with facts. The bible does not describe or record the physical creation of the recent or ancient earth/world, early or recent mankind, animals, fauna + flora, etc., and was never meant to be a science manual. Throughout the bible, scriptures state what God prefers mankind's behaviour, mindset and understanding to be. His interest is in the values of humankind. Also, keep in mind that the experience of the natural earth/world that mankind enjoys, ends at the grave and that biological + scientific matter only reacts + responds uniformly/ predictably to other biological + scientific factors. It is unintelligent matter + is unable to respond to the needs of mankind and
    intelligent life. The question that you have to ask yourself is what are you seeking? Scientific + biological facts, or God? Or possibly both?
    Don't lose faith in God. Your experience with the physical earth is temporary but salvation is eternal. Believing in the spiritual interpretation of Genesis is most
    definately not disbelieving in the Bible. Remember, the bible is not a science manual but rather a book of human qualities and Godliness.
    Consider the following:
    On the 1st day God said: Gen C1 V3 "Let there be light: and there was light.
    On the 4th day Gen C1 V6 And God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day + the lesser light to rule the night: He made the stars also.
    Therefore if God only made the sun, moon and stars on the 4th day, what light is referred to on the 1st day? Surely if it was the physical earth/world that is being referred to, then the sun, moon and stars should have been made on the 1st day?
    The sun, moon and stars are the only natural sources of light on the physical earth/world.
    Also in Mat. C5 V16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
    What light is referred to here? Surely it is the light within mankind?
    The Kingdom of God is within you. The previous testimonies above will give you idea of Genesis + the spiritual. Regarding the second coming of Christ, and any other questions that you may have,I suggest you visit your nearest O.A.C. as there is too much to testify of here.
    I pray God will open your understanding that you may see.

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    1. I wish to thank you for patiently answering my questions. I have however decided to leave the church after 43 years. It is no longer the church that I grew up in, as the beliefs have changed to a point where I cannot see myself believing in it anymore. Scpiturally and historically it is totally different to what I was taught and what I understand. I too have studied the scriptures and history, both of the church and history. I have a book that was printed in the church in the 1920's or 1930's I think - that proves what the church believed then and it truly is TOTALLY different to today's 'beliefs', So in closing I thank you but will respectfully decline your invitation to attend a OAC service, as all you hear there is in my life today, the scriptures are only to be read 'spiritually', Jesus was not a natural man - this statement alone is heresy. Yet the church leaders are happy that this sort of unspriptural statement is preached as truth. I am truely sorry about the turn of events. Thank you.

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    2. Jesus was a natural man. When did the church deny that? As for the spiritual beliefs, they require logical reasoning with scriptures that refer to spirit. The same with any other book. It is not logical or reasonable to leave the church, because they cannot prove/ disprove that God made the natural earth. No church can prove either/or. They can only state what they believe. If you believe that God made the natural earth then it is good and acceptable, but not a reason to leave. You are hurting yourself. Personally, I don't see what difference it makes. Trees, sea's, sun, sky, etc. cannot sin or be good. I do know that a common mistake is to assume that because Genesis refers to a creation, the whole bible is a historical/ geographical book about the natural earth. Clearly it is not, if one reads scriptures. It is about morals, values and practices, inwardly and outwardly. I can't imagine what is written in those 1920's/1930's books that you have, because the church has always believed spiritually. Denying the spiritual is heresy, to be absolutely correct.

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  41. Compare the following from online bibles at http://www.biblegateway.com for 1Cor 2:14

    KJV: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
    DARBY: But [the] natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him; and he cannot know [them] because they are spiritually discerned;
    GNV: But the natural man perceiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
    JUB: But the natural man does not perceive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
    YLT: and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know [them], because spiritually they are discerned;
    NIV: The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
    NRSV: Those who are unspiritual[a] do not receive the gifts of God’s Spirit, for they are foolishness to them, and they are unable to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
    RSV: The unspiritual[a] man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
    ASV: Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
    AMP: But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.
    CEB: But people who are unspiritual don’t accept the things from God’s Spirit. They are foolishness to them and can’t be understood, because they can only be comprehended in a spiritual way.
    CEV: That’s why only someone who has God’s Spirit can understand spiritual blessings. Anyone who doesn’t have God’s Spirit thinks these blessings are foolish.
    EXB: •person who does not have the Spirit [or natural person] does not accept the •truths [ things] that come from the Spirit of God. That person thinks they are foolish and cannot understand them, because they can only be •judged to be true [discerned; assessed] by the Spirit.
    GNT: Whoever does not have the Spirit cannot receive the gifts that come from God's Spirit. Such a person really does not understand them, and they seem to be nonsense, because their value can be judged only on a spiritual basis.
    NLV: But the person who is not a Christian does not understand these words from the Holy Spirit. He thinks they are foolish. He cannot understand them because he does not have the Holy Spirit to help him understand.
    NASB: But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
    VOICE: But a person who denies spiritual realities will not accept the things that come through the Spirit of God; they all sound like foolishness to him. He is incapable of grasping them because they are disseminated, discerned, and valued by the Spirit.
    WYC: For a beastly man perceiveth not those things that be of the Spirit of God; for it is folly to him, and he may not understand, for it is examined ghostly [for it is examined, or assayed, ghostly].

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